TAKE THAT *****!

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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Grimblade on Tue May 03, 2011 7:51 pm

Tal wrote:
So necessary.
I kinda beat you to that if you watched the video I posted earlier. Razz

But yesh, definitely necessary.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Sub on Wed May 04, 2011 12:42 am

You read the bible, Bret? Well, there's this passage I got memorized...Ezekiel 33:11,

"I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people.I only want them to turn from wicked ways so they may live."

Seriously, I'm not religious at all, but I totally agree with this. His death shouldn't be mourned, because of the things that he did, but no death should be celebrated. It just seems wrong to me.

And before I get jumped on for that, because we've already had this argument at RM, morality is extremely imprecise, and right and wrong is never set in stone. Look at it this way: there might be perfectly innocent, law-abiding people somewhere who hates America because we just went in there and screwed over everyone, regardless of their guilt. They might have terrorist family members, who from their view are doing something honorable, like we think of our soldiers. They might be wondering whether their dear fighters will ever return home. They might think Bin Laden had the right idea, and that his death was terrible. It has caused someone, somewhere, sadness.

I'm not supporting the terrorists, but I think that good and evil don't really exist. No person, however twisted, considers themselves evil (with the exception of psychos), and you have to consider the argument from every perspective.

Basically, his death may have had a large psychological effect on all parties involved, but ultimately it won't change anything. Whether he deserved to die (which raises another extreme moral question: does anyone deserve that?) is beside the point. The point now is that the terrorists have more of a motive to come after us now. It's not over.

Vengeance is sweet, but it isn't the same thing as justice, and oftentimes is creates more problems than it solves.

Again, note (because I know someone's going to attack me for this) that I did not say I supported terrorism, I did not say Bin Laden was a good person, and I did not say that he or his organization deserve pity or sympathy. All I said is that Americans are not always the good guys to everybody, which too many people tend to assume.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by BA on Wed May 04, 2011 7:06 am

"But I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd."

You state that morality is extremely imprecise, yet, how confident were you when pointed out that celebrating his death was wrong? I personally find it difficult to stay at one conclusion on issues of morality because it seems that one side can be just as right as another.

Now, with regards to people celebrating, there are many different reasons why people are celebrating. For one, they are happy he was taken care of. This wouldn't have been any different than if he was captured and detained, same thing applies with people saying that justice was served. Second, people overreacting or not taking things seriously like in this topic isn't exactly a new social issue just now coming to bare its fangs. The rest of the world is not immune to displays of shameful pride either, it's just that the focus now is on the United States.

From what I've read and heard on the news, fear is still embedded in the minds of the general public, as we are now worried about reprisal attacks from terrorists. I think most of us are aware that Osama bin Laden wasn't the reason extremism exists today. In the end though, I won't blame people for wanting to take a depressing situation and turn it into something of hope and inspiration and really just getting their minds off of it.

Besides all that, I do essentially agree with many of your points Sub, it's a real tough call and the future remains as uncertain as it has always been.


Last edited by BA on Wed May 04, 2011 7:41 am; edited 3 times in total
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Funky Road on Wed May 04, 2011 7:28 am

Speaking on a religious term, sometimes a death can be celebrated because if you've lost a loved one, whom you know was a christian and you know you're a christian yourself, it's not a time for mourning but celebrating the fact that he/she is in a better place and that the death wasn't a goodbye forever, but a mere see you later
That's speaking from my religious term because i believe in Christianity.

But aside from that BA has apoint that Bin Laden's killing can be lead to backstab from terrorists of the Middle East from anywhere. The only thing that matters now is making sure we stay well devensive against such attacks as well as offensivley fighting back if at all possible and necessary
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Grimblade on Wed May 04, 2011 6:52 pm

I have to say that I agree with the viewpoints mentioned by both BA, Sub, and Funky. As I stated in my first reply in the thread though; I honestly don't care. Call that bad, or call it good, whatever. But honestly, all it's done is raise political questions about the situation and cause extremists to run around putting up pictures of him that say "Rot in hell" and such, which absolutely disgusts me. They are only making our country look bad. A little bit of joking around can be expected, but as you said, "Celebrating" his death is excessive.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Sub on Wed May 04, 2011 7:58 pm

BA wrote:You state that morality is extremely imprecise, yet, how confident were you when pointed out that celebrating his death was wrong? I personally find it difficult to stay at one conclusion on issues of morality because it seems that one side can be just as right as another.
Where, here's how I look at it. Morality is an individual choice. I was confident in saying that celebrating his death is wrong, but my essay was meant to persuade, not to shove my beliefs down everyone's throats. I was confident because that is what I believe. I will try to persuade people to think like me, because although I understand that morality is imprecise, I am also human. I have a sense of my own right and wrong, and whether somebody else accepts that or not is up to them. I will try to persuade you, but not attack if you don't agree. That, I think, is what debates are all about.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by BA on Wed May 04, 2011 8:36 pm

Yeah, argumentation is pretty much a balancing act. Ultimately everybody wants you to think like them, but realistically the line between right and wrong can be pretty ambiguous. Debate and argumentation seek to the to clear the ambiguity and find out the truth or the best possible answer to the given topic.

A famous author wrote that you never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view, "until you climb into his skin and walk around in it." Same thing can be said for ideals too. I think that's a healthier approach to looking and solving disagreements/problems, to be detached and to look at it with an objective lens, so to speak.

Anyway, this is a real neat conversation, sorry if I sounded like I was preaching but thanks for being involved and giving your opinion nonetheless.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Sub on Wed May 04, 2011 8:51 pm

No, I agree, objectivity is a good thing to have in an argument, but also almost impossible to achieve.

Sometimes I think good and evil don't really exist at all. The line between them is so fine and clouded that I wonder why they are supposed to exist. In a war, one side always considers the other evil, no matter the deeds of each.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Grimblade on Wed May 04, 2011 8:53 pm

BA wrote:
A famous author wrote that you never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view, "until you climb into his skin and walk around in it." Same thing can be said for ideals too. I think that's a healthier approach to looking and solving disagreements/problems
That sounds more painful than healthy. Awesome Face
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Sub on Wed May 04, 2011 11:50 pm

Grimblade wrote:
BA wrote:
A famous author wrote that you never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view, "until you climb into his skin and walk around in it." Same thing can be said for ideals too. I think that's a healthier approach to looking and solving disagreements/problems
That sounds more painful than healthy. Awesome Face
BADUM CHA
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by BA on Thu May 05, 2011 12:04 am

Grimblade wrote:
BA wrote:
A famous author wrote that you never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view, "until you climb into his skin and walk around in it." Same thing can be said for ideals too. I think that's a healthier approach to looking and solving disagreements/problems
That sounds more painful than healthy. Awesome Face
I c wut you did thar. Awesome Face
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Kurono on Fri May 06, 2011 12:37 pm

i guess it all comes down to a question of morals and ethics.

I, for one, am not happy that Bin Laden is dead. I don't wish death to anyone.

Also Funk do you even know "the middle east" what the middle east is? Please do not fall into the stereotype thinking that everyone from that region is a terrorist.

Remember judge not lest ye be judged.


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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Funky Road on Fri May 06, 2011 3:55 pm

Oh no, that's why I said "most", incase nobody caught that minor word that goes over people's head all the time.

Israel for one I respect the most, but that's my relgious fact.


BUT! I do repsect the whole entire Earth and its roundedness lol. It's just MOST of the people over there are terrorists, not that I said most, not all. I've been realized that there are people who don't believe in terrorism religion or not
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Kurono on Fri May 06, 2011 5:51 pm

still saying most is most of the people, meaning more than half.
have you ever heard of jihad jane? i guess "most" people are terrorist.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Funky Road on Fri May 06, 2011 6:23 pm

Like I said haha. Most, but not all are bad, just a good many of them are those who think 72 virgins await them after blowing themselves up. But not all think that.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by BA on Fri May 06, 2011 7:36 pm

I agree that the Greater Middle East is especially susceptible to extremist groups. However, using the word 'Most' as a blanket term isn't really fair to those people. The main reason the Middle East is susceptible to extremism is in part because of it's past history of European colonialism and also because nation's fail to create stable working government's that enforce the law and keep the people happy.

Every culture, ideal, or religion is susceptible to extremism, and extremism relies on intimidation though terrorism (I.E. the act of violence) to influence and gain. Christianity went though the crusades to free the 'holy land' of Jerusalem from those who they saw as infidels, the Nazi's persecuted millions of Jews and other minority groups out of ignorance and hatred, the Irish Republican Army today uses terrorism in an attempt to gain Ireland's complete independence from the U.K. Violence isn't only restricted to Islam.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Sub on Sun May 08, 2011 2:24 am

Funky Road wrote:Like I said haha. Most, but not all are bad, just a good many of them are those who think 72 virgins await them after blowing themselves up. But not all think that.
No, that is completely untrue. Most of them are perfectly good. The vast majority of Muslims and people living in that region are good and innocent people, and a small fanatic minority with more resources is terrorizing us. What you're saying is a complete generalization, and a false one at that.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Funky Road on Sun May 08, 2011 8:34 am

Sub wrote:
Funky Road wrote:Like I said haha. Most, but not all are bad, just a good many of them are those who think 72 virgins await them after blowing themselves up. But not all think that.
No, that is completely untrue. Most of them are perfectly good. The vast majority of Muslims and people living in that region are good and innocent people, and a small fanatic minority with more resources is terrorizing us. What you're saying is a complete generalization, and a false one at that.

that's really what I was trying to get across
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Kurono on Sun May 08, 2011 11:30 pm

Funky Road wrote:
Sub wrote:
Funky Road wrote:Like I said haha. Most, but not all are bad, just a good many of them are those who think 72 virgins await them after blowing themselves up. But not all think that.
No, that is completely untrue. Most of them are perfectly good. The vast majority of Muslims and people living in that region are good and innocent people, and a small fanatic minority with more resources is terrorizing us. What you're saying is a complete generalization, and a false one at that.

that's really what I was trying to get across
i am happy that we are on the same page Awesome Face
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Sub on Mon May 09, 2011 1:09 am

Funky Road wrote:
Sub wrote:
Funky Road wrote:Like I said haha. Most, but not all are bad, just a good many of them are those who think 72 virgins await them after blowing themselves up. But not all think that.
No, that is completely untrue. Most of them are perfectly good. The vast majority of Muslims and people living in that region are good and innocent people, and a small fanatic minority with more resources is terrorizing us. What you're saying is a complete generalization, and a false one at that.

that's really what I was trying to get across
It seemed to me like what you were saying was backwards.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Funky Road on Mon May 09, 2011 7:17 am

Sub wrote:
Funky Road wrote:
Sub wrote:
Funky Road wrote:Like I said haha. Most, but not all are bad, just a good many of them are those who think 72 virgins await them after blowing themselves up. But not all think that.
No, that is completely untrue. Most of them are perfectly good. The vast majority of Muslims and people living in that region are good and innocent people, and a small fanatic minority with more resources is terrorizing us. What you're saying is a complete generalization, and a false one at that.

that's really what I was trying to get across
It seemed to me like what you were saying was backwards.

No, you just took what I was saying the wrong way. People do that all the time -_-
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Chu on Mon May 09, 2011 9:54 pm

I dont think hes dead, lol ;-;

hes been reported dead for like the past 10 years, wouldnt be surprising if this is another lie

i also think this could give a boost for obama for a re-election for him, however if osama is still alive he probably would of posted a video by now and make obama untrustworthy, unless osama and obama made a deal of some sort
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by BA on Mon May 09, 2011 10:36 pm

Then why would Pakistan be upset over nothing? Why would Al-qaeda acknowledge his death and threaten revenge? Like I said, pinning this on a political stunt is pushing it.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by Funky Road on Mon May 09, 2011 10:41 pm

BA wrote:Then why would Pakistan be upset over nothing? Why would Al-qaeda acknowledge his death and threaten revenge? Like I said, pinning this on a political stunt is pushing it.

BA has a very good point, I believe Osama Bin Numbnuts is dead. This is a turn for not only America but it's civilians, but also gives the other countries (who were negotiated with Osama) a reason to try and fight back.

But here's a thing about us Americans though, you try and go and piss us off, you gonna get knocked back with a much more powerful force. It's what we do and how we roll haha.
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Re: TAKE THAT *****!

Post by TheGameGuy on Mon May 09, 2011 11:26 pm

While I wish there were released photos and videos of Osama, I'm fairly certain he's dead. And I might believe its a political stunt if it were closer to the actual elections.
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